Why are we still in an era of sub-200HP "performance cars"?

"ZacMS" (zacms) 04/04/2015 at 14:56 • Filed to: None

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On a regular basis I'm greeted by news about an exciting new performance car. A car so great it will make your pants tight. A car that was finally built for the real car guys out there, a car that's truly sporty.

I scan the articles like a kid opening Christmas presents and eventually I stop on a line that says 2.0L naturally aspirated engine making 160hp,or something within half a liter and twenty horse power of that. Oh great, socks. Thanks Aunt Sally.

Why aren't automakers willing to make a 250hp light weight performance car? I was excited about the BRZ/FRS, until I saw that they just scraped the 200HP mark. I was excited about the new Miata until I saw it made 150hp. Fiesta ST, Civic SI, Corolla S (just kidding), all the same story and have the downside of being FWD as well.

I know you have the engines, you just stick them in heavy cars so they aren't as much fun. I understand you don't want to step on your higher end performance cars, but those cars seem to have numbers running away into the 500's, so not much worry there.

Why automakers, why!?

And don't you dare say cost! It's true, I'm not willing to spend 25k on a car that only makes 150hp, but I'd be willing to spend 30k on a car that made 250hp. You just haven't figured out the right balance yet, automakers, don't give up on us gear heads!

On second thought, never mind I'll just go buy a used G35 coupe or 335i.

TheHondaBro > ZacMS 04/04/2015 at 15:01

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This is too small and light for a lot of power. It's literally what happened with the TVR Cerbera Speed 12, which was basically a Miata with 800 hp.

IDROVEAPICKUPTRUCK > ZacMS 04/04/2015 at 15:02

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The reality is that a 250HP miata is often less fun than a 150hp miata. Why? Because you can't find the limits of the car legally.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > ZacMS 04/04/2015 at 15:03

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because to have fun on public roads why do you need more than 200 horses?

djmt1 > ZacMS 04/04/2015 at 15:05

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Go buy an Atom then if you want a powerful light weight car or a Caterham or a Lotus or a BAC Mono or an old Noble.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > ZacMS 04/04/2015 at 15:08

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This is all a result of arbitrarily labeling cars one thing or another. To me, the Miata has never been a "performance" car... It's just a cute little 2 seater convertible that weighs nothing with a small engine. That's why mom loves hers so much. It's not a CLK. It's zippy, responsive, and "cute." Similary with the BRZ. It's supposed to be a cool looking affordable sporty car that doesn't guzzle too much gas. My car puts out freaking 63 hp.... Why the emphasis on horsepower where it is not always necessary?

mXxxxXm24 /O/ /O/ > ZacMS 04/04/2015 at 15:13

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Some people miss the point of a small lightweight moderately powered car. The point is simple: Power that you can use on a day to day basis driving around town... To the store... To a friends house... To work. Most cars you can't really hit anywhere near the limits on road. Why do people enjoy go carts? They aren't fast enough to keep up with a Prius running low on batteries, but they can be fun anyway right? Useable power is key for a sports car. More power is key for a race car.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > ZacMS 04/04/2015 at 15:29

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Don't buy one.

Problem. Solved.

Makoyouidiot > ZacMS 04/04/2015 at 15:35

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I feel like you're gonna get a lot of hate with this post, but I agree fully with your sentiment.

DasWauto > ZacMS 04/04/2015 at 15:36

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Because performance isn't all about power.

Mike > mXxxxXm24 /O/ /O/ 04/04/2015 at 15:40

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Hell, my Mazda3 has all of 165hp and relatively short gearing, and even with that I hardly use the upper half of the powerband on public roads. You don't need a ton of power to have fun. "Slow car fast > fast car slow" and all that.

That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms > ZacMS 04/04/2015 at 15:54

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Why would they? 200hp in a lightweight car is fun, and less power generally means better mileage, which is the manufacturer's larger concern. Besides, they know there's going to be a big aftermarket on the cars, so let somebody else do the work.

I'd be interested to know how many Miata sales Mazda has lost because they don't offer more power. My guess is that it's a very, very small number.

FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com > ZacMS 04/04/2015 at 16:04

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I wonder if there is a magic HP number that makes insurance jump significantly in price. That 250 HP car at $30,000 might only be $100 per month more in loan payments, but of the insurance is also $100 more you might not be saying the same thing about stretching for the more powerful car.

Forgetful > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero 04/04/2015 at 16:14

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Yup. Said it before and I'll say it again, if you can't have fun in a light RWD act with 200hp and 6 speeds, you don't know how to drive.

bguyther > ZacMS 04/04/2015 at 16:17

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It's about sensation, not speed.

Opposite Locksmith > ZacMS 04/04/2015 at 16:46

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everyone will disagree with you but I'm with you!

~360 hp WRX owner

ZacMS > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero 04/04/2015 at 17:46

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I could make the Mr. Safety argument that you shouldn't be trying to have fun on public roads, but we both know that would be bullshit. Anything a 150hp car can do a 250hp car can do as well, and more though.

ZacMS > TheHondaBro 04/04/2015 at 17:54

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I'm not really arguing for a world of 800hp Miatas, cars so powerful they become undriveable. It would be nice if 0-60 didn't take 7 seconds. Do you really think a 250hp Miata would be worse than a 150hp Miata?

ZacMS > That Bastard Kurtis - An Attempt to Standardize My Username Across Platforms 04/04/2015 at 17:58

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Well judging by the sales of the NC they don't exactly have a winning formula. I see more 20 year old NAs driving around in mint condition then I do NCs. Why? Because you can have a car with 90% of the performance for 1/5 of the price if you buy an NA or NB, instead of a NC.

DipodomysDeserti > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero 04/04/2015 at 18:23

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Yes.

DipodomysDeserti > TheHondaBro 04/04/2015 at 18:25

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Nothing is too small and light for a lot of power. That's like saying , "nah, that girl is too short for a bin ol round butt." It's simply not true. That's why we have gas pedals rather than buttons, and performance tires.

aquila121 > ZacMS 04/04/2015 at 20:03

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Keep in mind everyone thinks differently on that 'adequate amount of horsepower vs. price' line you're talking about. This means where you'll pay $30,000 for a 250 hp car, someone else may say that's more than they want to spend overall, but they're fine with 200. This shows that automakers cannot nail that line with a single car (performance-oriented or not) for every buyer. There's an amazing thing, though, where you can buy a car like say, the FR-S, and spend money to modify it for more power: I think Jackson Racing makes a supercharger kit that's very well received if you long for more power to motivate the chassis, and don't want to do an engine swap. The Miata is the same way—Flyin' Miata is already working on fitting a V8 in the ND chassis. Just part with some extra money, and more power can be put into the car.

However, some people are very adamant that part of why they like the Miata is that it doesn't have gobs of power . They prefer a sports car that you can floor the gas nearly all of the time and not be doing ludicrous speeds. Or perhaps a number of drivers figure that a Miata with 400 horsepower is too much to wrestle with in the corners, or something similar. Are those with that opinion not enthusiasts? Do they not deserve a small, underpowered, roadster they desire? Mazda is willing to give it to them, as the Miata (especially the NA and NB chassis) have sold very well in their segment, even with the reputation of historically having meager horsepower.

duurtlang > ZacMS 04/05/2015 at 09:17

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I have way more fun in the 105 HP 205 GTI than in the 200+ SUV. Or in any other car. Moreover, I believe there is an optimum amount of power for a car. Above that amount it becomes less fun as it'll be less driveable. Especially if it has an effect on engine weight. For my 205 GTI this is probably 150 HP. I don't know what the optimum is for a Miata or BRZ, but I'm sure its not way higher than what they currently get. We're not talking about drag racers here, cars where HP means everything. These are drivers cars. You'll risk ruining balance.

MR2_FTW - Group J's resident Stig > ZacMS 04/05/2015 at 20:58

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What do all these cars have in common?

Every single one of these amazing cars puts less than 200 horsepower to the ground. You really don't need horsepower for fun. BUT you do need relatively light weight.